EARTH-FORBIDDEN PLANET (see comments)
Type: Alternate Earth
Environment: Earth-like
Usual means of access: Vibrational attunement
Dominant Life Form: Humanity
Significant Inhabitants: Asterix the Gaul, Batman (Bruce Wayne), Conan, Cyclops (Scott Summers), Commissioner Eustace P. Dolan, Flash (Barry Allen), Galactus (Galan), Green Lantern (Hal Jordan), the Gronk, Howard the Duck, Hulk (Bruce Banner), Paul Hudson, the Joker, Judge Joseph Dredd, Kolvorok, the Octopus, Plastic Man (Patrick "Eel" O'Brian), Red Sonja, Robby the Robot, Spider-Man (Peter Parker), Spikes Harvey Rotten, Storm (Ororo Munroe), Superman (Clark Kent/Kal-El), the Thing (Ben Grimm), Tin, Dick Tracy, Vampirella, Wolverine (James Howlett/Logan), Wonder Woman (Princess Diana), one unidentified
First Appearance: Star Wars Weekly#29 (August 23rd 1978)
History:
(Star Wars Weekly#29) - A newly opened comic book store in London drew a
diverse clientele of adventurers, robots, aliens and superheroes.
Superman began reading a copy of his debut, Action Comics#1, in the
store, finding himself a stool to sit on, and was soon so lost in the
story that he failed to react to Conan and Wonder Woman draping
themselves on him to rudely read over his shoulder.
A crowd of other would-be readers
gathered, though Howard the Duck seemed peeved at being crowded, and
possibly because he wasn't tall enough to see the comic. Staff member
Paul Hudson, in charge of the store's comic section, took notice and
irately reminded them all that comics were for customers.
Asterix looked at him in annoyance for
the interruption, while the Joker worryingly shifted his focus to Paul,
and the Gronk stared nervously at the hand of the crimelord Octopus, who
was trying to get Paul's attention.
(The Forbidden Planet Comic Catalogue#1) - Judge Dredd later arrested Galactus, Dick Tracy, Wolverine, Wonder Woman, Superman and Howard the Duck.
(Comiccon '78 2000A.D. advert) - Dredd subsequently gunned down Spider-Man, Superman, Cyclops, Red Sonja, the Flash, Batman, Green Lantern, the Hulk, Wonder Woman, the Thing, Conan, Storm, Howard the Duck and one other unidentified individual.
Comments: Created by Brian Bolland.
Some might correctly point out that these were merely adverts for a comic book store. They might then conclude that because of that there was no intention of the part of either the store or Bolland to tell a story with these single panel images, and that this entry is reading far too much into them by treating them as a cohesive example of an actual alternate reality. To which I say, yes, you are entirely correct, but so what? In those single panels, Bolland's artwork manages to imply a surprising level of narrative, and besides, it's fun to have an excuse to cover Judge Dredd and Asterix the Gaul in a Marvel context, however oblique the connection.
It's possible that this isn't a reality all
its own, but simply a couple of snapshots of Earth-Crossover,
revealing that Dick Tracy, Judge Dredd, Vampirella and Asterix also
exist there alongside Marvel, DC, Image, Archie and Transformer
characters.
I don't see any
reason why it wouldn't be part of Earth-Crossover. That's my
vote--Snood.
Brian Bolland drew a number of adverts for British comic book store Forbidden Planet in the late 1970s and early 1980s, but I'm only including here the ones I know to have included Marvel characters. The main image was used to advertise the opening of their new store, while the second image on this page was the cover of their first comic catalogue. What's astounding to me isn't that FP got away with using so many copyrighted characters from different companies without (afaik) any permissions being sought - stores did and probably still do that all over the world on fliers and the like, relying on the owners not hearing about or caring about such small scale copyright infringements - but that the first advert actually ran in a Marvel U.K. title. It also ran in the first issue of the merged British weekly 2000A.D. and Starlord#86, and possibly other titles. Bolland similarly did a cross-company advert for 2000A.D. that appeared in the British/London Comiccon '78 brochure, but subsequent adverts utilized new, deliberately outre characters. I've included the Comiccon '78 2000AD advert since it was also partially drawn by Bolland (he did everyone but Dredd) and featured a lot of the same characters, but not those later FP adverts, since they include no identifiable characters, no Marvel characters, and present no obvious narrative besides "various weird-looking people like us shop at Forbidden Planet."
It's perhaps also worth mentioning that Forbidden Planet weren't the only British comic shops to advertise this way using characters from multiple companies - Dark They Were And Golden-Eyed beat them to the idea by several years.
Thanks to Sidney Osinga for identifying the Octopus, Paul Hudson for identifying himself, and Paul Dawson for identifying where Kolvorok came from.
Profile by Loki.
CLARIFICATIONS:
Earth-Forbidden Planet has no known connections to:
Asterix has no known connections to:
Batman has no known connections to:
Conan is an extradimensional counterpart of
Cyclops is an extradimensional counterpart of
Commissioner Dolan has no known connections to:
The Flash is an extradimensional counterpart of
Galactus is an extradimensional counterpart of
Green Lantern is an extradimensional counterpart of
The Gronk has no known connections to:
Paul Hudson is an extradimensional counterpart of
The Hulk is an extradimensional counterpart of
The Joker has no known connections to:
Judge Dredd has no known connections to:
Kolvorok has no known connections to
Plastic Man has no known connections to:
Red Sonja is an extradimensional counterpart of
Robby the Robot has no known connections to:
Spider-Man is an extradimensional counterpart of
Spikes Harvey Rotten has no known connections to:
Storm is an extradimensional counterpart of
Superman has no known connections to:
The Thing is an extradimensional counterpart of
Tin has no known connections to:
Dick Tracy is an extradimensional counterpart of
Vampirella has no known connections to:
Wolverine is an extradimensional counterpart of
Wonder Woman has no known connections to:
Asterix the Gaul was a from a small village in northern Gaul (modern day France) circa 50 B.C. which had managed to hold out against the Roman Empire thanks to the magic formula its druid produced that granted superhuman strength. Despite being one of the village's smaller warriors, Asterix was actually their greatest thanks to his superior intelligence. Too short to be able to look over Superman's shoulder, Asterix instead seemed to be annoyed by Paul Hudson telling the group off for reading the comics in store.
Comments: Created by Albert Underzo and Rene
Goscinny.
Asterix debuted in the French magazine Pilote#1
(October 29, 1959).
--Star Wars Weekly#29
Batman was Bruce Wayne, a billionaire businessman who had devoted his life to fighting crime after witnessing his parents being murdered by a mugger when he was a young boy. He seemed to find something in Action Comics#1 of interest, and was stroking his chin, deep in contemplation to the point where he was ignoring his enduring nemesis the Joker.
Judge Dredd later gunned him and several
other superhumans down for reasons unknown.
Comments: Created by Bob Kane and Bill Finger.
He debuted in National Allied Publications' Detective
Comics#27 (May 1939).
--Star Wars Weekly#29 (Comiccon '78 2000A.D. advert
A Hyborian barbarian, Conan was leaning heavily on
Superman's right shoulder while trying to read Action Comics#1.
Judge Dredd later gunned him and several other superhumans down for reasons unknown.
Comments: Created by Robert E. Howard, adapted
for comics by Roy Thomas and Barry Smith.
Conan debuted in Weird Tales' December 1932 issue,
and debuted in comics in Marvel's Conan the Barbarian I#1 (October
1970).
--Star Wars Weekly#29 (Comiccon '78 2000A.D. advert
The X-Man Cyclops somehow drew the ire of Mega-City lawman Judge Dredd, who mercilessly gunned him down.
Comments: Created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby. Cyclops debuted in X-Men I#1 (September 1963).
--Comiccon '78 2000A.D. advert
Police Commissioner Eustace P. Dolan was an ally of the vigilante known as the Spirit. While visiting London's Forbidden Planet, he joined a throng assembling around Superman's reading of Action Comics#1.
Comments: Created by Will Eisner.
Dolan debuted in The Spirit newspaper strip published in Register and Tribune Syndicate newspapers from June 2nd 1940.
--Forbidden Planet Comic Catalogue#1
The speedster known as the Flash somehow drew the ire of Mega-City lawman Judge Dredd, who mercilessly gunned him down.
Comments: Created by Robert Kanigher and Carmine
Infantino.
The Barry Allen Flash debuted in DC's Showcase#4 (October 1956).
--Comiccon '78 2000A.D. advert
Last known survivor of the reality that existed before
the Big Bang, Galan the explorer became Galactus the World-Eater.
Rather smaller than normal, perhaps due to extreme hunger, Galactus was among a number of people rounded up by Judge Dredd.
Comments: Created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, Galactus debuted in Fantastic Four I#48 (March 1966)
--Forbidden Planet Comic Catalogue#1
Green Lantern somehow drew the ire of Mega-City lawman Judge Dredd, who mercilessly gunned him down.
Comments: Created by John Broome and Gil Kane.
The Hal Jordan Green Lantern debuted in Showcase#22 (October 1959).
--Comiccon '78 2000A.D. advert
A timid, metal-eating alien from the
planet Blas, the Gronk served as medical support for the mutant bounty
hunter Johnny Alpha and his norm partner (and time-displaced Viking)
Wulf Sternhammer.
He came from a future era where atomic
wars on Earth had resulted in widespread mutant births, and those
mutants were prohibited from any legal work apart from the
dangerous job of hunting down fugitives across outer space; those
willing to undertake such employment were designated Search/Destroy
Agents, but their distinctive S/D badges soon earned them a derogatory
nickname: Strontium Dogs.
On the edge of the crowd that had gathered around Superman, the Gronk seemed more concerned about whoever was trying to get Paul Hudson's attention than trying to read Action Comics#1.
Comment: Created by John Wagner and Carlos
Ezquerra, the Gronk first appeared in the strip Strontium Dog in
I.P.C.'s Starlord#3 (May 27th 1978), a weekly SF anthology comic that
later merged with 2000A.D.
The original Gronk died helping Johnny Alpha and Wulf Sternhammer after only a few issues, but the pair encountered his identical (to humans) looking brother in Starlord#14 (August 12th 1978), and he became an enduring ally through the remainder of the series.
--Star Wars Weekly#29
An
unwilling exile from his home reality of Duckworld, Howard was trapped
in a store he never made, to wit, London's Forbidden Planet.
Howard had joined the crowd gathered around Superman, despite being too short to read the Kryptonian's copy of Action Comics#1, but seemed more annoyed at those surrounding him, perhaps due to the uncomfortably close proximity of Red Sonja's carelessly held sword to his tail feathers.
Howard was later among the suspects rounded up by Judge Dredd, and looked justifiably worried about falling *fowl* (ahem) of the lawman.
Comments: Created by Steve Gerber and Val Mayerik, Howard the Duck debuted in (Adventure into) Fear#19 (December 1973)
--Star Wars Weekly#29 (Forbidden Planet Comic Catalogue#1
Paul Hudson was the staff member who ran the comics section of the Forbidden Planet store in Denmark Street between 1978 and 1980. He tried in vain to stop the assembled superheroes, villains and other outré visitors to the store from reading a valuable copy of Action Comics#1 in the store without purchasing it, but only succeeded in drawing the dangerous attention of the Joker and the Octopus.
Comment: Thanks to Paul for identifying himself.
--Star Wars Weekly#29
The Hulk somehow drew the ire of Mega-City lawman Judge Dredd, who mercilessly gunned him down.
Comments: Created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby. Hulk debuted in Incredible Hulk#1 (May 1962).
--Comiccon '78 2000A.D. advert
A psychopathic criminal mastermind who plagued Gotham
City and its vigilante defender Batman, the Joker had joined the fringe
of the crowd that had gathered around Superman, but, too far from the
Kryptonian to be able to comfortably read Action Comics#1, had his
attention drawn towards Paul Hudson who was
complaining about them reading the comic without purchasing it.
Which probably didn't bode well for Paul...
Comments: Created by Bob Kane, Bill Finger and Jerry Robinson, the Joker debuted in National Allied Publications' Batman I#1 in Spring 1940.
--Star Wars Weekly#29
A
lawman in the futuristic Mega-City One, located on the former United
States' Eastern seaboard after a second Civil War that itself followed a
devastating Atomic War that left much of North America as a radioactive
"Cursed Earth," Judge Joseph Dredd was cloned from the DNA of one of the
Justice System's founding fathers, Chief Judge Eustace Fargo, and
trained from infancy to uphold the law.
He was the top lawman in a hugely overpopulated city where the pressure of hundreds of millions living on top of one another meant that even the slightest spark could ignite full-scale wars between rival city blocks, the smallest crime had to be swiftly and harshly dealt with in order to maintain order.
Dredd joined the crowd gathering around Superman in Forbidden Planet, though whether this was due to being interested in Action Comics#1 or checking to see if some crime was being committed by some in the crowd remained unrevealed; certainly, in Mega-City One many comics were treated like narcotic drugs, banned for overstimulating readers to the point where they committed breaches of the peace and other crimes.
Perhaps this was why Dredd later rounded up
a number of individuals who had been in the store, along with others of
their ilk.
Howard the Duck seemed particularly frightened, perhaps having drawn Dredd's additional ire for the crime of smoking outside of a designated Smokatorium, a felony that was treated harshly in Dredd's city, where breathable-quality air was not a given.
Dredd later gunned down a number of
heroes, villains and barbarian warriors for unrevealed reasons.
Comments: Created by John Wagner and Carlos Ezquerra, Judge Dredd debuted in British SF weekly anthology 2000A.D.#2 (March 5th 1977).
--Star Wars Weekly#29 (Forbidden Planet Comic Catalogue#1, Comiccon '78 2000A.D. advert
Kolvorok was the Director of
Biological Research for the Galactic Federation, reporting directly to
His Excellency, the Fleet Commander of said Federation. He frequently
interacted with Earth's ambassador, Jeff Hawke. Kolovorok was also
present in Forbidden Planet the day Superman decided to read Action
Comics#1, though he seemed more focused on Howard the Duck than the
comic or the others present at the gathering.
Comments: Kolvorok was created by Sydney Jordan and William Patterson for the Daily Express newspaper strip Jeff Hawke. He debuted in the thirty-seventh installment of the sixth storyline, Sanctuary, published (if I've got my calculations right) on 7th August 1956.
--Star Wars Weekly#29
A master criminal and the nemesis of the crimefighting
Spirit, the Octopus was careful to always keep his face and identity
hidden, but could be recognized by his distinctive purple gloves.
The Octopus visited Forbidden Planet, and when a staff member irately told the other visitors reading Action Comics#1 that the comics were for customers only, the crimelord reached out to tap Paul Hudson on the back, presumably intending to make it clear he disagreed with this statement.
Comments: Created by Will Eisner, the Octopus debuted in the Spirit newspaper strip story "The Postage Stamp" (14th July 1946).
--Star Wars Weekly#29
Exposed to chemicals during a botched
robbery attempt at Crawford Chemical Works, small time crook Patrick
"Eel" O'Brian found his body had become incredibly pliable, allowing him
to stretch and distort to a superhuman extent. Deciding to turn over a
new leaf, Eel became the superhero Plastic Man.
He later used his stretching powers to move his head to a good position to read Superman's copy of Action Comics#1 despite the large crowd that surrounded the Kryptonian.
Comments: Created by Jack Cole, Plastic Man first appeared in Quality Comics' Police Comics#1 (August 1941).
--Star Wars Weekly#29
A warrior from Hyrkania, the
She-Devil with a Sword Red Sonja seemed to be focused on Vampirella
rather than Action Comics#1, and was seemingly unaware or uncaring that
her unsheathed sword was uncomfortably close to the unamused Howard the
Duck's unprotected rear, something the unusual fowl clearly felt was
unacceptable.
Given the shared glares, there appeared to be a problem between the two heroines, perhaps centered over Sonja's jealousy that Vampirella seemed able to get away with wearing even less than her.
Judge Dredd later gunned her and several other superhumans down for reasons unknown.
Comments: Debuting on Conan the Barbarian I#23
(February 1973), Red Sonja was created by Roy Thomas and Barry Smith,
but based on Robert E. Howard's creation Red Sonya of Rogatino, who
first appeared in the short story "The Shadow of the Vulture" from
January 1934's The Magic Carpet Magazine.
And in the time since I first wrote this
profile for the Appendix, Vampirella and Red Sonja have now teamed
up...with Archie Comics' Betty and Veronica thrown into the mix too!
--Star Wars Weekly#29 (Comiccon '78 2000A.D. advert
Built by Doctor Morbius (not the
vampire!) using the advanced science of the long-extinct alien Krell,
Robby faithfully served both the scientist and his daughter Altaira
while they lived in isolation on the planet Altair IV.
He later visited the Forbidden Planet store in London, where he joined the large crowd that gathered around Superman.
Comment: Created in 1952 by Irving Block and
Allen Adler, who drew their inspiration for Robby from the character of
Ariel in William Shakespeare's The Tempest, written circa 1610.
Robby was designed by Arnold "Buddy"
Gillespie, Arthur Lonegan and Irving Block, developed by the MGM art
department and constructed by MGM's prop department, and debuted in the
(appropriately named) movie Forbidden Planet in 1956, and subsequently
appeared in multiple movies and TV series.
As far as I can tell, this advert seems to have been Robby's debut into comics; I can't help but think he must have an earlier appearance that I've yet to locate.
--Star Wars Weekly#29
Spider-Man somehow drew the ire of Mega-City lawman Judge Dredd, who mercilessly gunned him down.
Comments: Created by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko. Spider-Man debuted in Amazing Fantasy#15 (August 1962).
--Comiccon '78 2000A.D. advert
Spikes Harvey Rotten was the leader of the Muties biker
gang, whose crimes including gun-running across the Cursed Earth.
Arrested by Judge Dredd while taking
part in the lethal and highly illegal Mega-City 5000 race, he later
redeemed himself by serving as a guide for Dredd's mercy mission
delivering a vital vaccine for a plague that had engulfed the West
Coast's Mega-City Two.
The pair apparently took a break from that vital mission to visit London's Forbidden Planet store, and soon afterwards, upon returning to the Cursed Earth, Spikes sacrificed himself to take out the forces of the robot soldier General Blood'n'Nuts.
Comments: Created by John Wagner and Bill Ward,
Spikes debuted in the Judge Dredd strip in 2000AD#40 (26th November
1977) then returned for the the start of the Cursed Earth Saga in
2000AD#61 (22nd April 1978).
Shortly after his visit to the Forbidden Planet store in August 1978 he tragically died in 2000AD#84 (30th September 1978); his valiant sacrifice helped save the lives of everyone in Mega-City Two, at least until it was nuked out of existence at Judge Dredd's suggestion in Judge Dredd Megazine II#7 (25th July 1992); win some, lose some.
--Star Wars Weekly#29
The X-Man Storm somehow drew the ire of Mega-City lawman Judge Dredd, who mercilessly gunned her down.
Comments: Created by Len Wein and Dave Cockrum. Storm debuted in Giant Size X-Men#1 (May 1975).
--Comiccon '78 2000A.D. advert
Kal-El, a.k.a. Clark Kent, is the last
survivor of the destroyed planet Krypton, except for his
cousin Supergirl, pet dog Krypto, the primate Beppo the Supermonkey,
juvenile delinquent Dev-Em, dozens (if not hundreds) of criminals exiled
to the Phantom Zone such as General Zod, Jax-Ur, Quex-Ul and Faora
Hu-Ul, exiled siblings Mala, Kizo and U-Ban, and the around 6 million
inhabitants of the miniaturized city of Kandor.
Being the sole survivor,
he has a strong sense of duty to protect his adoptive homeworld of Earth
as the hero Superman.
While visiting London's Forbidden Planet store, he became engrossed in a copy of Action Comics#1 to the point where he seemed unaware of the crowd that had gathered around him, even the ones leaning heavily on him to read the book over his shoulders.
He was later among the individuals rounded up by Mega-City lawman Judge Dredd.
Judge Dredd later gunned him and several other superhumans down for reasons unknown.
Comments: Created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster, Superman debuted in National Allied Publications' Action Comics#1 (April 18th 1938).
--Star Wars Weekly#29 (Forbidden Planet Comic Catalogue#1, Comiccon '78 2000A.D. advert
Pilot Ben Grimm was transformed into
the monstrous rock-hided Thing after being exposed to cosmic rays during
a test flight of his scientist friend Reed Richards' rocketship.
He was on the far edge of the crowd that gathered around Superman in Forbidden Planet, and seemed somewhat disgruntled, perhaps because he couldn't get a clear view of Action Comics#1.
Judge Dredd later gunned him and several other superhumans down for reasons unknown.
Comments: Created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, the Thing debuted in Fantastic Four I#1 (November 1961)
--Star Wars Weekly#29 (Comiccon '78 2000A.D. advert
Tin was one of the Metal Men robots
created by scientist Doctor Will Magnus.
Unlike most of the crowd surrounding Superman in Forbidden Planet, Tin paid attention to the upset Paul Hudson who was berating them for not paying for the comic they were reading, though his grin suggested he wasn't taking the chastising too seriously.
Comments: Created by Robert Kanigher and Ross Andru, Tin debuted alongside the other Metal Men in DC's Showcase#37 (March-April 1962).
--Star Wars Weekly#29
Dick Tracy was a police detective
known for his distinctive yellow trenchcoat, high-tech gadgets, and a
rogue's gallery of grotesque criminals.
Despite his own lengthy association with law-enforcement, he was still among those arrested by Mega-City lawman Judge Dredd.
Comments: Created by Chester Gould, Dick Tracy debuted in a newspaper strip in The Detroit Mirror on October 14th 1931.
--Forbidden Planet Comic Catalogue#1
An underdressed space vampire from the planet Drakulon and sometimes horror host, Vampirella shared glares across the floor of London's Forbidden Planet with fellow heroine Red Sonja. The origin of this apparent feud remains unrevealed.
Comments: Created by Forrest J. Ackerman and Trina Robbins, Vampirella debuted Warren Publishing's Vampirella#1 (September 1969). And before anyone writes in to correct her description as being an alien from Drakulon, yes, I know it later got retconned, but not until several years after her appearance in this advert.
--Star Wars Weekly#29
A mutant with a healing factor and
Adamantium-covered bones and claws, the X-Men Wolverine was among the
individuals whom Judge Dredd apparently arrested, and looked somewhat
annoyed by the experience.
Or perhaps, given his differing stance from the others Dredd confronted, Wolverine was midway through the Macarena. You decide.
Comments: Created by , Wolverine debuted in Incredible Hulk II#180 (October 1974)
--Forbidden Planet Comic Catalogue#1
An Amazon from the hidden island of
Themyscira, Princess Diana was known as Wonder Woman to the wider world.
She joined many others gathered round Superman in London's Forbidden Planet store trying to read the Kryptonian's copy of Action Comics#1.
She was later among the individuals Judge Dredd apparently suspected guilty of unrevealed crimes.
Judge Dredd later gunned him and several other superhumans down for reasons unknown.
Comments: Created by psychologist, author, inventor and bondage-aficionado William Moulton Marston and artist Harry G. Peter, Wonder Woman debuted in All-American Publications' All Star Comics#8 (January 1942).
--Star Wars Weekly#29 (Forbidden Planet Comic Catalogue#1, Comiccon '78 2000A.D. advert
An unidentified individual somehow drew the ire of Mega-City lawman Judge Dredd, who mercilessly gunned him down.
Comments: If anyone recognizes who this is meant to be, please let us know!
--Comiccon '78 2000A.D. advert
images: (without ads)
Star Wars Weekly#29 advert (main image plus headshots for Asterix,
Batman, Conan, Dolan, Gronk, Judge Dredd, Kolvorok, Octopus, Plastic
Man, Red Sonja, Robby, Spikes, Superman, Tin, Thing, Vampirella, Wonder
Woman and Paul Hudson, annoyed Howard the Duck body shot)
Forbidden Planet Comic Catalogue#1 cover (secondary image, plus
headshots for Dick Tracy, Galactus, Wolverine, plus surrendering Howard
and arresting Dredd)
Comiccon '78 2000A.D. advert
(tertiary image of Dredd sitting on bike amidst apparently dead heroes,
plus headshots for Cyclops, Flash, Green Lantern, Hulk, Spider-Man,
Storm)
Appearances:
Star Wars Weekly#29 (August 23rd 1978) - Brian Bolland (writer, art)
Forbidden Planet Comic Catalogue#1 (Winter 1979-1980) - Brian Bolland
(writer, art)
Comiccon '78 2000A.D. advert
First Posted: 02/06/2019
Last updated: 08/16/2021
Any Additions/Corrections? please let me know.
Non-Marvel
Copyright
info
All other characters mentioned or pictured are ™ and © 1941-2099
Marvel Characters, Inc. All Rights Reserved. If you like this stuff, you
should check out the real thing!
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